An important follow-up to the shelter-dog post
This comment was given to the "How to kill a shelter dog" post; I will replicate it here because I think it's so important to respond to, but won't give the person's name or e-mail (after all, they did not ask to be singled out like this!)
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Geez, this is WAY too sweeping! We bought a puppy from a sportsman with 5 chessies, and one litter. Met the mom and dad (both healthy and well trained, great temperments).
Our puppy is now 2 years old and a WONDERFUL dog. Well behaved, lovely, a dog of a lifetime. He's not quite show quality (topline is not straight enough). But he's not going to be bred. So why do you feel you need to go this far?
This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Imagine that you came to look at a new house for sale. The agent said "I've sold fifteen of these; everyone just LOVES the brick facade and these are great houses to live in. Big closets, wonderful kitchens." You look up at the house and the entire thing is listing to one side; the roofline shows a definite dip in the middle and shingles are already starting to buckle under the strain. "But what about the roof? Isn't that a pretty bad sign? And the whole thing seems to be falling over!" The agent responds "Why do you even feel the need to mention that? You're not going for the cover of Architectural Digest, are you? You just want to live in this house. The roof doesn't matter!" Do you buy the house? OF COURSE NOT. You'd be an rank idiot to buy that house and, furthermore, everybody knows that. The brick and the gorgeous kitchen is going to do you no good when the whole thing falls over in fifteen years. You know that the architect or the builder was at best clueless and at worst deceptive. Why is it, then, that the exact same structural faults, when bred in by the "architect" of the litter, don't matter? I am absolutely sure that your dog is a wonderful, wonderful dog. If you read this blog for any length of time you know that we are on the order of blinking bedlam in love with Ginny, who has more structural faults than you could list on a notebook page. But here's the thing: ALL DOGS ARE WONDERFUL. The mind and heart of a dog is a mystical and astounding fit for the mind and heart of a man or a woman or a child, and even the worst dogs are endearing. The best dogs are life-changing. Nobody's arguing that you shouldn't love and bond with a dog who isn't as well-bred or well-structured as he or she should be. The question is whether we should be deliberately producing MORE of those dogs. Topline faults, like your dog has, are not because of a benign variation in the bones of the spine. Topline faults are the result of the OTHER bones being shaped incorrectly. Either the front (the assembly of the shoulder blade and the upper arm) is too far forward so the change in the direction of the vertebrae is exposed, or the angle of the stifle and hock is greater than the angle of the front and the dog literally trips over his front legs when he runs, so the dog has learned to pop up his loin to keep his rear out of the way of his front, or there is some other imbalance or lack of relaxation lower down in the body. Each of these imbalances affects the dog as he stands, or moves, or runs, and in each case some of his ability to be comfortable is gone. You obviously adore your dog, which is fabulous. And you are going to watch out for him and make sure he's happy. But he doesn't exist in a vacuum. His mom probably had a similar topline fault. And she was asked to carry an extra twenty to thirty pounds (when she was pregnant) on a topline that was not as strong and supportive as it should have been. Breeders KNOW what pregnancy does to an iffy topline; it can break it down completely, leaving the bitch with not just a minor dip but a complete sway. And that contributes to injury, stiffness, arthritis, and so on. And while he will never be shown or bred, his sisters quite possibly will be. And his brothers will be bred to other Chessies and pass on their own faults, faults that most assuredly do affect longevity and quality of life. This kind of thing should be just as outrageous to us as a builder trying to sell a house with shingles falling off. It should tick us off; it should make us feel ripped off that somebody is out there selling living creatures who, through no fault of their own, don't have as good a chance at living a long and happy life. It is NOT true that only champions should be bred. It IS true that breeders should have to prove that they are consistently and deliberately producing sound bodies so the wonderful doggy minds inside them can have a structure that allows them to do their job with ease and without pain. One way of doing that is showing; breeders who show are saying "This was not a fluke; this was my conscious effort because I understand how dogs are supposed to be built." Breeders can also do it by working their dogs, systematically and into old age and with some kind of element of peer review so there's somebody telling them whether it's working. This could be hunting or herding or doing schutzhund or flyball or one of MANY disciplines. The important part of it is not the name attached; it's having to show your dog to somebody who's going to say to you "See this? Neuter this dog" or "See that? Breed to that dog." Peer review forces us out of our own emotional attachments and makes us consider what we are doing in the context of the entire group or the entire breed; it also puts us next to people who have dogs who are MUCH better than ours are, which gives us something to strive for. The reason I get so heated about this is not that I only love show dogs. Our rescues bring us great joy and a depth of experience that in some ways the show dogs will never touch; the deepest bond is saving a life, and when you absolutely know that you are the one who stood between this living creature and a premature death, it gets you right in the knees. What makes me mad is that it seems that everybody forgot the DOG in the conversation. It becomes what I want, or don't be unfair to that nice breeder, or are you saying I'm dumb for buying this dog, or aren't you such a snob. Forget me, forget you, forget the breeder. Look at the dog. He did not ask to be born; his parents did not fall in love and run through the field together. Somebody deliberately made him, and he had no choice in the matter. So it is the height of sin to make him in a way that means he does not have at least a decent chance of being comfortable, sane, whole, and happy for as long a life as he should have on this earth, and for his body to obey his brain with ease and joy. Please do not write a check to somebody who doesn't have that much consideration for him, or for his mother. |
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Awesome fllow-up.
The poster's comment is exactly the situation my parents found themselves in. The dog (a dachsund) has the greatest temperment and is just the most wonderful personality, but it did not have a sound structure at all, and as pet owners they did not understand/recognize that when they purchased the dog. At six it slipped a disk…. surgery… recovery…. and then from 10-13yrs a gradual decline to complete paralyzation again.
With the dog only 2yrs old the poster isn't even close to seeing all the things they may have to deal with in the coming years, and the pain they may have to witness their best friend endure.
To extend your house analogy:
It's one thing to buy a house with an angled roofline and bad siding when you're buying an old house (either for historical value or price). This is like getting a shelter dog – you're living with someone else's mistakes for some reason, but not really encouraging more of them.
It's something quite different to walk into a new development and buy from a builder who's making crooked houses.
I'm so glad you posted this!
I am the ridiculously proud owner of a Standard Poodle named Flash. He's the love of my life, and we do everything together. I bought him two years ago from what I thought was a good breeder. (I didn't know very much back then; we had always adopted our dogs from the pound, and I was new to the world of breeding.)
His breeder was a very sweet woman. Her dogs were all healthy and happy, and lived in her house and slept on her bed. She spent two hours on the phone grilling me to make sure I was a good enough home for a one of her puppies. But her dogs were not AKC registered or shown in any kind of conformation event (they came from "champion lines").
I thought it didn't matter. I didn't plan on showing my dog, so he didn't need to be registered.
Well, my lovely poodle puppy (and he is lovely, we get compliments constantly) cannot swim! I found out that this is because his pelvis is angled incorrectly, depriving him of power in his back end. Because of this, he is completely incapable of swimming without a life jacket, and has terrible movement. He pulls himself forward with his front legs to compensate for lack of rear drive, and flings his elbows out when he runs.
If this were only a matter of looks, and I had a healthy dog that just runs kind of funny, I wouldn't mind. But if he's compensating for joint problems at two, how will his quality of life be when he's eight, or ten, or twelve?
I will never again be bothered by someone who says I'm a snob because I insist on paying a breeder 1500 dollars or more for a poodle. My next poodle will come from the most conscientious and careful breeder I can find, never mind the price.
To be honest, I absolutely and fervently wish you were a breeder of standard poodles and not cardis. ;)
I have a couple of small comments. First, to the person with the Chessie: did you know that is one breed that isn't necessarily supposed to have a level topline? We used to know a breeder locally. I just pulled up the standard on akc.org to recheck my memory that they were all butt-high.
And to the person whose parents have the dachshund: a disk problem is not indicative of "bad breeding" in that breed. Unless you consider it "bad breeding" to breed dwarf dogs at all, and some do. Unfortunately disk problems are something that we may be doomed to deal with from time-to-time, though Cardigans do not have the same level of problems that dachshunds do.
You can breed two very sound dogs with the best of intentions and still produce puppies with problems. It is said that the longer you breed, the more and stranger problems you will experience. I don't mean proportionately more, but that the odds will catch up with you.
Unfortunately dealing with living creatures and what we still *don't* know about genetics, not to mention accidents of birth, make breeding not as scientific or exact as building an inanimate object such as a house. Maybe all of the soon-expected puppies will be perfect with no structural faults. I haven't had that happen yet. We just do the best we can. The important thing is that you stand behind your pups and take them back for any reason anytime during their entire life-span. That is how you ensure that they never end up in a shelter.
OK, so maybe that wasn't that short.
I understand that any dachshund, and really any dog, even well bred could have problems. That said my parents bought the dog from someone who had bought and bred the mother soley because her young son wanted a dachshund. She really had no business breeding the dog.
My parents have always had regrets about having not seen the stud dog and the fact that the mother had a very long back, much longer than there previous dachshund. The dog has also suffered from a number of issues healthwise, Jawbone deterioration for one, that make me think it was a less than researched/considered breeding.
First, thank you, Carolyn!
Second, know your show breeder. That can be very tricky for a newcomer. A lot of "stuff" is said ringside that never makes it to the general public. And, a lot of stuff is said that should never make it to the general public!
Third, a question for Joanna – what is your opinion about breeders who breed for the ring – breed well, I'm not complaining about structure or soundness of body, but do not pay any attention to the dog's original use, in my case, herding? Cardigans don't seem to be suffering just yet, but we're seeing a lot of Pembrokes who have little to no interest in herding at all. I understand that a herding breed can be a handful for the inexperienced dog owner, but are breeders breeding "down" in instinct to make the pups a more acceptable companion animal? Did I word that right??!!
Thanks,
JoAnne
i still don't see how you can determine from the comment you highlighted, that the person who bred his dogs did so irresponsibly….unless you are saying that a responsible breeder will make sure his buyers know his qualifications and the qualifications of his dogs enough that the new owners won't make that sort of comment?
anyway, i agree wholeheartedly that those who orchestrate the creation of a new life should be prepared to be fully responsible for that life. but perhaps the way it's phrased in the shelter dog argument is too heavy-handed, at least if it's meant to be a way to inform a general population…
If you visit a typical good breeder, you will not be able to get six feet inside the door without being aware of what this person does :). If the room ISN’T covered with win pics, titles, pictures of dogs with ducks, etc., and if you’re not handed coffee in an ancient Eukanuba mug, then yes the breeder will almost certainly introduce his dogs and himself and the puppies in a way that makes their background very clear. This is not because he’s making a special effort; it’s because those are the reasons he bred the litter and talking about anything else comes second.
Also, it’s very unusual for a good (small) breeder to have the perfect mate for their bitches sitting there on the couch. If you’ve got nineteen dogs and this is a carefully orchestrated process where by the time you’ve been in a breed for twenty years you keep five or six intact dogs and do a combination of breeding to them and breeding to dogs other people own, then yes. Often both parents will be there. But if you’ve got only a few dogs and have been in the breed only a little while, is it REALLY likely, that of all the purebred Chesapeake Bay Retrievers in the world, the best one for your bitch is actually the one in your backyard? “Both parents on site” is usually a huge red flag, and should NEVER be used as a way to know that this is a good purchase.
do you think it's ever an acceptable practice to have dogs chained and/or in outdoor kennels a majority of their time at a 'good' breeding operation? i HATE when i see breeder websites showing off their pack all on tie downs in some vaguely forest-y clearing. but i don't know if i'm just a city douche that doesn't understand how that could be perfectly acceptable way of letting dogs enjoy their outdoor time or if when you have a large number of dogs on site there isn't much else you can for them since they can't all be indoors at once..
thanks for answering all my questions, i really enjoy reading your blog for your perspective (and all of the fantastic pictures of course – can't wait until you get to flood this site with clue's litter!).
Tie-downs are in and of themselves not evil. It depends on what the dog does the other hours of the day that makes their lives good or bad. It’s common for sled-doggers to keep their dogs on tie-downs, and is an accepted (and acceptable) part of their culture. However, the dogs are out being run every single day and being exercised in other ways as well (many have big “hamster wheels” or other type of mechanized or dog-powered activities) so their tie-down time is roughly equivalent to our crating or kenneling time. The dogs are happy to be sleeping and lounging while on tie-down and have plenty of mental and physical stimulation every day. Some dogs who are very crate-aggressive (i.e., view the crate as the enemy or as a challenge and fight to break it whenever they’re in it) can be put on an inside tie-down (usually an eye hook in the wall) and have much the same good life.
If the dog LIVES on the tie-down, yes it’s a very bad sign.
What you’re getting at is a very good question: How should breeders keep dogs who are not inside the house? Most of us get to a point, sooner or later, where we have dogs who are not all inside all the time. I think the best way to do it, and this is based on how I’ve seen my own dogs be happiest and most balanced, is to have outside time be very enriching. In other words, dogs stuck on their own in a 40×10-foot run with a concrete floor have a pretty sucky life, and those owners or breeders have to intervene constantly to make sure that they are being challenged and amused in other ways. But dogs in small packs in an very enriched environment (hills, rocks, dirt, things to hunt and chase) can have a very lovely time and do not seem to get frustrated. I think the other key is to rotate dogs; every dog should be inside the house as much as possible and, at the VERY minimum, for the lengths of time that allow them to learn how to be normal house dogs. They should learn to hold their bladder, to go up and down stairs, to be familiar with couches and beds, etc. Each dog should have handling every single day; a dog who has access to a guillotine door and who is fed through the kennel door might go days without extensive human handling.
If you find a breeder whose dogs want to be in her pocket (or your pocket) all the time, even if some of the time they live in the kennels or barns, most likely she’s doing a decent job of making sure they know they’re peoples and not coyotes. If the dogs are scared even of HER, or seem to be unfamiliar with normal indoor life or handling, I would call that a red flag.